Andrew Sullivan - Is America great? lyrics

Brian Lamb: Let's go to Hollywood, Florida, on the democratic line. Good morning. Caller #1: Good morning. Brian when I heard you were going to have these two guests on, I couldn't wait. I had to stay home. I thought it'd bring a lot of laughs, I guess, into my house this morning so I'm really looking forward to it. I would be interested in you asking, unless I missed it I think Andrew answered it but I didn't hear it from Christopher, about whether they agree that America is one of the greatest or "the" greatest nation on the earth and I would be interested in you following up and asking them why. In listening to the answers of a lot of Americans and non-citizens who called up I only heard a few that really echoed my sentiments which is: We are, probably, I would agree we are the greatest nation on earth, but it's not because of our wealth or a lot of the things people have discussed but rather the individual freedom and the individuals like you have there I think that come out of, even though neither one of them are Americans, that come out of a system and a culture that I think that breeds leadership. And along those lines I wanted to say as a personal note to Andrew, he's somebody who I admire being a gay man myself who doesn't always agree with what seems to be the predominant politics and thinking amongst a lot of my peers and friends and people I hang out with and I just respect him for the courage and the leadership that I am sure his path in life has taken him. Brian Lamb: Thanks, Hollywood. I hope these two, if you're going to stay home this morning, do begin to entertain you at some point... but now we're being serious for a moment. Christopher Hitchens: He didn't really ask a laugh inducing question, did he? He asked what was slightly lugubrious but a perfectly good question. Well, there was a Teamsters Union official once, up on this hill behind us, who was asked at the opening of a hearing into his affairs "Well wouldn't you agree the Teamsters Union is a very powerful union in American trucking?" And he said, looking rather narrowly back at the senator, he said "Well senator, being powerful is a bit like being ladylike," He said "If you have to say you are you probably ain't". So I think, I like America most of all on the days when people are not going around shouting "USA! USA! We're number one! We're the greatest!" I prefer the days when they don't do that but when they're probably most to be admired. It's a case of always think of it, never speak of it. Of course, objectively as well as subjectively, the American revolution is now the only revolution with a fighting chance of survival and success: the idea that you could create a multicultural democracy over a vast expanse of the earth's surface that could possibly be emulated by other people. Brian Lamb: Chicago, democratic line. Good morning. Caller #2: Yes, good morning, Brian. Good morning, gentlemen. Brian I actually liked the second phrase of your question about the greatest country. The reason being is because, and this is a comment for the gentlemen, to please think about time and space. I'm pretty sure that countries prior to us - Roman empire, Germany; other great countries, when I say great countries I mean in time and space - they too thought that they were the greatest country on earth. So please compare those particular countries, and certainly England, Britain, at that time and space, they too thought that they were the greatest. Brian Lamb: Thanks. Mr. Hitchens? Christopher Hitchens: Well, look. We haven't exhausted this topic clearly. Why not think of America as a lucky country, for example? It has oceans on either side of it; it has reasonably tranquil neighbours on the land; it managed to buy Louisiana for a knock down price, and Louisiana meant - the purchase meant - this whole central sway of the United States; managed to buy Alaska a fire sale price from the Tsar: it doesn't get any better than this and that's why I quite like the New York version of the national boast "Is this a great country, or what?" I think that the need, anyone just going around saying un-ironically "Well, if you know a better country why don't you go there?" The sort of love it or leave it thing, is I'm afraid to say illustrating a quite different point in reminding people of other traits in the American character and traits in American history that are not so attractive or so wonderful. Andrew Sullivan: I'd also point out that you're right that it's lucky, but goodness think of those people that got here. Christopher Hitchens: Oh, yes. Andrew Sullivan: I mean, the actual tenacity... Christopher Hitchens: And it's made of oil and coal and everything that you can possibly imagine, uranium... Andrew Sullivan: But still, the ability of these immigrants to come here and construct - in a matter of a hundred or two hundred years - the most powerful and indeed diverse and stable democracy on earth is... Christopher Hitchens: Slightly rough on the people who were living here already. One should not forget... Nobody's proud of that. Andrew Sullivan: No one should be proud of that. Brian Lamb: Baltimore, you're next. Caller #3: Good morning, gentlemen. I have a quick one line quote and then I have a question for Christopher. Benjamin Disraeli once said "The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not behind the scenes." I'd like to, I know we've had shadow governments in local and state, and I'd like to ask Christopher who he thinks really runs the show. Christopher Hitchens: Hmm... one of the great things about living in America is the fantastic number of beliefs there are about who's really running it - which, as the constitution says, should be, as it were, you and me. There are people who believe it's the illuminati, there are people who believe it's the Jews, there are people who believe it's the freemasons, there are people who believe it's just corporate America or the military industrial complex... I think that there is a danger at the moment that there's too much of a lottery about who controls things and that the price of entry into that lottery is very expensive, that's what I meant earlier by the relationship between corporate culture and organised crime with the Enron business. I hope and believe that many Americans, despite their current sort of patriotic unity, are really annoyed if not incensed at the ease with which rich crooks can get access to the highest circles of the government, and the way in which the government considers that that's nobody's business but theirs. I mean there should be a real outrage about that. Brian Lamb: Let's go to Long Island, New York, on the republic line, you're on the air. Caller #4: Good morning, gentlemen, thank you for your program it's the first time I'm calling. My question is addressed to Mr. Hitchens please. It's a two part question. 1) In order for America to be the greatest nation on earth, can you explain at what price? Isn't it a price of exploiting other countries, their natural resources and bringing all the brains and all the talented people here? 2) Mr. Hitchens, please explain for me because I respect your work and your opinion, how do you define terrorism? Is it a different definition for it? Isn't it what Israel is doing: a**a**inating people and k**ing their children and innocent civilians in hundreds, and over the years in millions, isn't that terrorism? Brian Lamb: Thanks, caller. Christopher Hitchens: On the first point about exploitation - as you call it, I mean as I mentioned before about the Congo and I could've mentioned for other countries too - there are places where the United States has entered into alliances with predatory elites for it's own benefit or for the benefits of small groups of Americans. It's a disgraceful business but there are many people also who believe, not all of them are radicals like myself, that the United States is better off tending to its own business and that ever since, perhaps as far back as, 1898 expansionism has had it's major downsides - that's a huge debate. I don't think the United States needs or, as a society, requires of itself that it exploit others, no. It could on it's own resources get by so there's no imperial imperative. I always avoid the use of the word terrorism where I can because it has become far too generalized and loaded and ideologised in so many ways and it can be used by anyone who isn't a pacifist to say that it's the pursuit of politics by forceable means. I think if you wanted a definition it would be: the exclusive concentration on the disruption of civilian life and the taking of civilian life as an end as well as a tactic; as something good in itself as well as a means to another end - and that's the purely double-distilled essence of it - that one saw on September 11th but I still prefer to call that religious fascism because that's what it really is. Andrew Sullivan: Let me say that this notion of exploitation... Christopher Hitchens: And as for the Israelis everybody knows that, because I mustn't seem to duck that question because I know how toxic it is, everybody knows that if you want to occupy people against their will if you want to be the governor of another people who haven't chosen you, you will end up visiting terrible cruelty on them. There certainly cannot be a humane occupation. Brian Lamb: Andrew Sullivan? Andrew Sullivan: I would say quite simply this concept of exploitation, the idea that America by being a beacon for many other people around the world is somehow exploiting other countries is baloney. The reason people come here is because it's freer here. If those countries in the middle east don't want to be exploited, get yourself democracy, get yourselves a free market. Why are we making excuses for countries that do not do the obvious thing to create wealth and power and security and freedom for their citizens? It is not America's responsibility to do that. I also say that the context in which Christopher's been talking about many of America's foreign engagements, and some of which I agree with him, have not been pretty but the context of a global struggle against tyranny called the Soviet Union in which many things were done which in an ideal world one would have regretted and one does regret. However the alternative which was caving in to those thugs in Moscow was much worse. I'd also say that no country in the history of the world has had this much disproportionate power and wielded it so gently. There is no actual occupation of places against their will by the United States in any meaningful sense compared to the British or the Germans or any other empire. Christopher Hitchens: I don't actually know when the Cuban people signed off on having the Guantanamo base on their soil - to give you a small example. Andrew Sullivan: Compare Guantanamo Bay with the British empire or Nazi occupation... Christopher Hitchens: Excuse me, it's certainly true that the American occupation of Cuba and of many other territories in Central and South America well pre-dates the Bolshevik revolution. So your critique is a-historical as well as politically, I think, rather opportunist.