Anderson Cooper - "License to Discriminate?" Interview lyrics

[Anderson Cooper] Now Arizona Republican state senator, Al Melvin, he voted for the bill, he wants Governor Brewer to sign it, in fact he's running for governor of the state. He spent a lot of time exploring all the angles on the measure. Here's part one of the interview. Senator, this law came about in reaction to cases in other states where people have been sued because they refused to contribute in some way to a same-s** wedding; a wedding photographer in New Mexico, for example. And I know you say this is an attempt in Arizona to protect people's religious beliefs, but the places where it's occurred in other states, like New Mexico, are states that have laws against discriminating against people based on s**ual orientation. So Arizona doesn't have a state law protecting gay people; there's no federal law either. So it's already legal to refuse service to someone who's gay in most cities in Arizona already, correct? [Al Melvin] Well, the bottom line for us and those who voted for it-- and it was a majority in both chambers-- is it's as basic as religious freedom. You could say that it might be preemptive after we saw what has taken place in some other states, but we think it's nothing more and nothing less than protecting religious freedom in our state, and we take that very seriously. [Anderson Cooper] And I understand that, but it is legal already to discriminate against somebody who's gay in Arizona. You can fire somebody because they're gay. There's no law against that in most cities in Arizona, correct? [Al Melvin] Well, I've been in our Senate for six years and I don't know of any provision in our state laws to discriminate against anyone. [Anderson Cooper] But what-- but, sir, as you-- [Al Melvin] For Democrats and Republicans alike that we don't-- we don't want to discriminate against anybody. [Anderson Cooper] Right, but under federal law and under Arizona law, except for a few cities, there's no s**ual orientation that's not included among race and gender and disability, things you can't discriminate against, correct? [Al Melvin] Well-- [Anderson Cooper] It's yes or no. Correct? [Al Melvin] Well, that's why this bill-- well, this bill will prevent discrimination, and that's what we want to do here. [Anderson Cooper] But, sir, with respect, you're not answering the question. Under Arizona law, state law, s**ual orientation is not included in anti-discrimination legislation, correct? [Al Melvin] Yes. [Anderson Cooper] Okay. So it's legal-- you can fire somebody for being gay already, correct? [Al Melvin] We don't want that to happen here. [Anderson Cooper] Right, but-- [Al Melvin] That's not my understanding-- [Anderson Cooper] But it can happen. [Al Melvin] And I would-- I don't know of anybody that would advocate that or stand for it. [Anderson Cooper] Okay, but under this law, you say it's all about protecting people of faith in Arizona. Can you give me a specific example of someone in Arizona who's been forced to do something against their religious belief or successfully sued because of their faith? [Al Melvin] Again, I think if anything, this bill is preemptive to protect priests-- [Anderson Cooper] You can't give me one example of this actually happening? [Al Melvin] I-- no, I can't. But we've seen it in other states and we don't want it to happen here. [Anderson Cooper] But it's happened in other states that have laws protecting gay people specifically, that's what this bill is all about. And, in Arizona, they don't have laws protecting gay people. So it can happen in Arizona? [Al Melvin] Well, sir, the bottom line is, this is not a discrimination bill, this is a religious freedom bill. We want to protect religious freedom here. [Anderson Cooper] But you can't cite one example where religious freedom is under attack in Arizona. [Al Melvin] Not now, no. But how about tomorrow? (END VIDEOTAPE) [Anderson Cooper] So that's part one of the interview, we're going to have a lot more right after this break. That's Senator Melvin, we'll have him right back. (BREAK) [Anderson Cooper] Welcome back. We're talking about Arizona's SB-1062 bill, and the question whether it targets anybody or was inspired by any fear of, animus against or disdain for any people or a group of people. In a moment NYU law professor Kenji Yoshino joins us, but first, part two of my conversation with Arizona Republican state senator who supports the bill, Al Melvin, who is running for governor, by the way. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) [Anderson Cooper] Help me understand. Under your law, under this law, if I'm a Catholic loan officer, say, in a bank, and I don't like the idea of loaning money to a divorced woman because Jesus spoke against divorce very strongly, or I don't want to loan money to an unwed mother, even though she might be-- you know-- able to pay me back as a loan officer. I just don't-- it's against my religious belief and my religious belief is sincere. Under your law, I could refuse to do business with an unwed mother or a divorced woman, correct? [Al Melvin] I don't know where you're getting your hypotheticals from, sir. Divorced women and what was the other one you cited? [Anderson Cooper] Unwed mother. I mean, Jesus spoke-- [Al Melvin] Who would be against an unwed mother? I wouldn't be, I wouldn't be against a divorced woman. [Anderson Cooper] But, sir, as you know-- [Al Melvin] And you don't-- [Al Melvin] Sir -- Discrimination to the nth degree. [Anderson Cooper] No, actually, sir, I'm just talking about what Jesus talked. Jesus spoke against divorce. He actually spoke against divorce, he never said anything about gay people. So there are plenty of people who would oppose doing business with a gay person. I'm saying, under your law, if it's a sincere belief on the part of that loan officer and doing business with that unwed mother or that divorced woman, would not be a trivial or a technical or a minor burden on my beliefs, and that's my argument under your law, I don't have to do business with that person. [Al Melvin] I think you're being far-fetched, with all due respect, sir. As a Christian, as most God-fearing men and women would respect unwed mothers, divorced women, who would discriminate against them? I've never heard of discriminating against people like that. I never have. I don't know where you're-- [Anderson Cooper] But I've read your law-- [Al Melvin] -- getting your hypotheticals from, sir. [Anderson Cooper] Well, by reading your law. And I'm coming up with an example of somebody who might be-- who has a-- there's plenty of people who oppose divorce and who have a sincere belief that it is absolutely wrong, that marriage is for life, they made a vow. And they don't want to do some business with someone who's divorced. Under your law, as long as that belief is sincere and as long as it's not a minor interaction that you have to have with that person, which I would argue loaning money to that person is not a minor interaction or a technical interaction. Under your law, it's certainly something that could be-- go to the courts about. [Al Melvin] I don't believe so, sir. [Anderson Cooper] Okay. [Al Melvin] You know, all of the pillars of society are under attack in the United States. The family-- the traditional family-- traditional marriage, mainline churches, the Boy Scouts, you name it. [Anderson Cooper] So no florist in Arizona is going to be forced to participate in a gay wedding because a) you don't have gay weddings in Arizona, and you're not going to any time soon. And b) under Arizona law, it's OK to discriminate against a gay person and refuse them service already. So that's two reasons why no person of faith is going to be forced to interact with a gay person at their wedding. It's not going to happen in Arizona? [Al Melvin] With all due respect, sir, I don't know of anybody in Arizona that would discriminate against a fellow human being. [Al Melvin] No Christian or no Jew that I know of. [Anderson Cooper] Really, nobody? I know people in New York that would discriminate plenty. [Al Melvin] Not that I know of. [Anderson Cooper] Really? There's nobody-- discrimination doesn't exist in Arizona? [Al Melvin] Well, maybe you ought to move to Arizona, we're more people friendly here, apparently. [Anderson Cooper] You're on the tourism caucus. [Al Melvin] You know-- [Anderson Cooper] I understand, in the Senate. Aren't you concerned about the impact on-- [Al Melvin] I started it. [Anderson Cooper] You started it. [Al Melvin] I started the-- I started the tourism caucus. We are number one in the country by most business magazines as the best state in the country to start a business. We're number one for job creation as per Forbes magazine. [Anderson Cooper] But as you know, businesses have-- [Al Melvin] And we're number eight in overall pro business climate. [Anderson Cooper] But as you know businesses have come out saying that this is bad for business. This is bad for the state. But go ahead, I'm sorry. [Al Melvin] Because as you-- because there has become a media frenzy on this, that has caused other candidates for governor that buckle-- [Anderson Cooper] You're seriously blaming the media on this? [Al Melvin] Under the pressure of the media. [Anderson Cooper] Come on. [Al Melvin] Yes, well, but when you take discrimination against unwed mothers and divorced women, I have never heard of that in my entire life. It's like you're starting a cottage industry of perceived and-- [Anderson Cooper] Are you telling me that there's nobody who opposes divorce? You're telling me there's nobody who opposes divorce? [Al Melvin] Everybody that I know wants strong marriages. Strong traditional marriages. They want them. And divorce is a sad thing. It usually hurts children, and we don't want that. That's why we want to strengthen traditional marriage as defined between one man and one woman. [Anderson Cooper] But you're saying-- you're a**uming under your law that everybody has the sort of the same religious beliefs as you do. But there are many-- there are dozens of religions. [Al Melvin] No, I'm not. [Anderson Cooper] Well, there's probably hundreds of religions in the United States with all sorts of different beliefs. [Al Melvin] Yes. [Anderson Cooper] So you're saying everybody has to be able to act according to their own beliefs. And I understand that desire. That's part of America to protect your religious freedom; that's one of the great things about this country. [Al Melvin] Yes. [Anderson Cooper] But at the same time can a society exist-- [Al Melvin] And that's what this bill is all about. [Anderson Cooper] But can a society exist where everybody gets to decide who they interact with and who they don't based solely on their religious beliefs and, for whatever reason-- irrationally-- somebody doesn't like somebody else, as long as it's a sincerely held belief, under your law, they don't have to deal with that person? [Al Melvin] This bill is designed for religious freedom. No matter how you twist and try to turn it. That is the bottom line here. [Anderson Cooper] You can't answer a quick question. [Al Melvin] There is no belief perceived, it was no belief voted on, and we hope the governor signs it into law. [Anderson Cooper] If somebody is fired because they're gay or lesbian in your state, is that discrimination? Would you say that's discrimination? [Al Melvin] I-- I don't know of anybody that discriminates in our state, sir. [Anderson Cooper] Okay. [Al Melvin] Including what you just mentioned [Anderson Cooper] I'm just saying, but if somebody-- if somebody is fired, a boss doesn't like some guy on their staff or a woman on their staff because they're gay or lesbian and they're fired for that, which is legal because there's no protection against s**ual orientation, is that discrimination? [Al Melvin] You know, you're trying to distort a religious freedom bill and-- [Anderson Cooper] Sir, you're running for governor of the state of Arizona. You're running for governor of the state of Arizona. [Al Melvin] I am, sir. Yes, I am. [Anderson Cooper] You're going to be governor of gay and lesbian people. [Al Melvin] Yes, sir. [Anderson Cooper] And you can't even go on the record and say, "If a gay and lesbian person is fired simply for being gay or lesbian, that's discrimination"? You can't even make that leap and just say, yes, that would be discrimination? [Al Melvin] I-- I don't know of any case like you just cited, sir. [Anderson Cooper] I want to give you one more opportunity because I think this is going to come back on you. If somebody anywhere in America is fired because they're gay or lesbian, and that's the reason they're fired, just because somebody doesn't like them, and it's legal in that state, is that discrimination? [Al Melvin] I'm against all discrimination and I want maximum religious freedom, sir. [Anderson Cooper] So, okay, you can't answer that question then. I gave you the opportunity-- [Al Melvin] That's my answer to you. [Anderson Cooper] I hear you. [Al Melvin] I know you're trying to set me up, and I'm not going to stand for it, sir. [Anderson Cooper] OK. Senator Al Melvin, I appreciate your time, thank you. [Al Melvin] OK, thank you.