General Lew Allen - Questioning General Lew Allen lyrics

Senator Hart Thank you, Mr. Chairman. General Allen, there are two broad areas that this committee is concerned about in terms of legislative recommendations. One is congressional oversight, and the other is the issue of command and control. And it is in these two areas that I would like to ask a couple of questions. First of all, you went to some lengths in your statement to talk about the history of NSA's briefing of Congress and Various congressional committees. In that history, was there any occasion when the officials of the NSA briefed members of congress about the watch list activity? General Allen Sir, I honestly don't know about that, prior to my coming on in the summer of 1973. And the reason for that is that the testimony is in executive session -- and there are conversations, and I really don't know whether previous Directors discussed it with Congress or not. I would say that I have no evidence they did. Senator Hart That they did or did not? General Allen I would say that I have no evidence that previous Directors discussed the watch list matters with Congress prior to the summer of 1973 when I came on board. Since I went on board, there have been a number of occasions where this has been discussed with various elements of Congress which, to a certain degree, began early in 1974 with the investigations of the House Appropriations Committee investigating team. Senator Hart With what degree of specificity did you brief elements as you say, of Congress about the watch list activities? With the same degree of specificity that is contained in your statement today -- the numbers of names and so forth? General Allen The investigation that I refer to by the Appropriations Committee investigative team did go into the matter in substantially more detail than we have described today. There were a number of pages in their report that we related to that. I would suspect that other briefings probably were of less detail -- well, no, I would say the briefing before Mr. Pike's committee was in more detail, discussed today, in closed session. Senator Hart For the purposes of our record today, did you conduct some historical review, whether, prior to your a**umption of the Directorship, such briefings on watch list activities took place? General Allen Well, to the extent that we're able to conduct those activities, we have. And we have no evidence that they did take place. Excuse me, I have just been pointed out an exception to that, and that is, Mr. Nedzi was briefed on the -- at a previous time on the general subject of how these kinds of communications are handled. And I presume that he was given a fairly thorough insight into this. Senator Hart Do you know when that was? General Allen We will find that out, sir. Senator Hart The same question applies to the other program which we have under consideration here today, over which there is some dispute. Could you tell us whether Congress, or any elements of Congress, were briefed on that program? General Allen I do not know. I do not know that they were. Senator Hart If you could find out and let us know, I think we would appreciate it. The second broad area is the area of command and control. Who is in charge here? Who gives the orders? How high up are the officials who know what is going on? In this connection, it is my understanding that officials presently at NSA have testified, or given us information that your predecessor, Admiral Gayler, and the former Deputy Director, Dr. Tordella, were completely aware of the watch list program, and their sworn testimony in the case of each or both of them is that they were not aware of this, or only became aware of it sometime after they a**umed their positions. Could you give us a definitive answer as to whether both Admiral Gayler or Dr. Tordella knew about the watch list activities? General Allen I am certain they did, sir. An I think the testimony you refer to mus be misinterpreted in some way, because clearly, Admiral Gayler and Dr. Tordella knew, and have testified -- I think, perhaps, sir, you may be referring to a question that did arise in our more complete closed discussions with the staff in which there was a question as to whether these an*lytic amplifications which NSA made to the lists -- that is, where names added by NSA people to enhance the selection process of the requirement already specified -- whether those were approved by the proper command structure within the NSA. And there has been a little uncertainty about that. It is fairly clear to me in my research that there was an appropriate Directorship, Deputy Director review of those procedures. It has been a little unclear as to whether each name was approved and so on. Senator Hart In that connection, Admiral Gayler was asked, "Did people tell you the list included names of U.S. citizens or other entities?" and then came to a rather long answer which includes the following statement: "This particular subject didn't come to my attention until about the time this domestic problem was surfaced by the President." The staff then asked, more specifically, when that was, and he said, "I became aware of that, I guess it was a year or so after I got there." So Admiral Gayler does not suggest that he was briefed on the existence of watch list activities until perhaps more than a year after he a**umed the Directorship. Do you know why that would be? General Allen No, sir, I don't. I was not aware of that aspect of his testimony. I do know, for example, of information that has been made available to the committee, that he was aware, and made fully aware, in 1971, early 1971 [exhibit 5]. Your time refers, actually, to before that. Senator Hart When did he a**ume the Directorship? In 1969? General Allen Yes; it must have been 1969. Yes, sir. Senator Hart So a period of time pa**ed in which the Director of NSA apparently did not know that this activity was going on. We find that extraordinary. You have stated that NSA officials or personnel were placing names on the list. There seems to be some dispute about that also. Admiral Gayler and Dr. Tordella both deny that they knew that NSA was putting names on the list, yet, I think the suggestion here is that this was knowledge that the Director and the Deputy Director didn't know about. Is that the case? General Allen Well, we have clearly had a conflict in people's recollections in that period of time. It is the clear recollection -- and there certainly are some internal memorandums that reflect -- that the procedures by which amplifications are made to lists were explained to the Director and Deputy Director at the time, and they were are of them. It apparently is also true that in the period of time when they gave testimony, they didn't recall that particular briefing. Senator Hart Well, your testimony here this morning is a little confusing also. In your statement, you say we do not generate our own requirements for foreign intelligence, and yet the indication is that the staff or officials of NSA, do, or had in the past, added names out of the Office of Security and so forth. General Allen I'm sorry, sir, that is another question. That does not actually relate to foreign intelligence. I believe it is not the subject of discussion today. The question of adding names that relate to the amplifications in the foreign intelligence field was in no case a matter of adding anything new to the list. It was a matter of adding aliases, it was a matter of adding addresses in some cases where an organization had been specified, and it would a**ist picking up messages of that organization, the names of officials of the organization were added to enhance the selection process. Senator Hart But it is your testimony that out of the NSA itself, there was no generation of new names or organizations? General Allen That is correct. Senator Hart In connection with the role of the Intelligence Board, you indicate in your statement that the U.S. Intelligence Board reviewed these activities and was kept cognizant of them. We have testimony -- statements before this committee by people involved in the Board's activities in the past, that the Board itself, in being appraised that watch list activities were going on was not aware of the fact that communications of U.S. citizens were being monitored. Is that the case, or not? General Allen Well the difficulty that we have here, sir, as I understand it, is there is no record that the U.S. Intelligence Board in its sessions ever considered or had this information presented to them. The circumstances are that the requirements process of the U.S. Intelligence Board, which is directed toward substantive requirements, did include in it various subject statements -- that is, that related to these particular subjects. And on occasion included such subjects as in satisfying the watch list individuals provided by whatever agency it was. So those things are in the U.S. Intelligence Board guidelines. It could by only presumed that U.S. Intelligence Board, which consists of membership of the requesting organizations, knew that the lists they were directing to us to follow were lists which their agency was preparing and did contain some U.S. names. Senator Hart And therefore, it is your testimony, or is it not, that the intelligence board knew that so-called civil disturbance names were being included on this list? General Allen Well, the U.S. Intelligence Board certainly knew that, because my predecessor, General Carter, made it a very specific point to notify them immediately upon getting what he considered to be the first request in this area. And that was his purpose for doing that. Senator Hart Including the civil disturbance names? General Allen Well, yes, sir. His measure is here in the record [exhibit 2], but it states that he is being asked to respond to this requirement and to seek intelligence regarding foreign influence on certain organizations. Senator Hart One final question, General. In connection with the Huston Plan, one recommendation of that group was that communications intelligence capabilities should be broadened and that the President was requested to authorize broadening of those capabilities. To your knowledge, did President Nixon know about the extent of this watch list? General Allen No. I have no such knowledge one way or another as to President Nixon's personal knowledge. Senator Hart So you, or perhaps Mr. Buffham, can't account for the fact that the President was being asked to broaden capability that he did not know existed in the first place? General Allen Well, you asked me what I though President Nixon knew. Senator Hart Yes. General Allen And I say I really don't know. There is some evidence as to what MR. Huston thought because we have the various things which he wrote, and the documents that her prepared. Mr. Huston Apparently believed that this activity which he knew of, and which he had seen the output of, was being conducted in a very restrictive and minimal manner -- which was true -- and that it would be of value to those problems which the President had on his mind if it were expanded. And he also recognized that the NSA would not respond to that kind of request for expansion or broadening of this activity without very clear and specific Presidential direction to do so. So it is my understanding that Mr. Huston was making such a recommendation, and or course it did not come to pa**. Senator Hart That is all. Mr. Chairman, thank you.