Brian Lamb - On Gay Marriage and Christianity lyrics

Brian Lamb: Orlando Florida, Republican line. Caller #1: What I'm going to say is probably going to be pretty upsetting to both of you gentlemen but I'm going to be as straight forward as I can and I don't want to be cut off while I'm saying it too. Heteros**uals, we get married because our marriage is sealed by God. We follow the letter of the law. Now, we're not perfect but we do. Now you're saying, we follow the God of who? Not just any god, not just any Pagan God; the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The same ones that the m**ms, I mean you know they claim it's the same, and the Jews - and that's why same s** marriage is an issue. Andrew Sullivan: I would just point out to you that you have every right to do that, but we do not live in a theocratic state. There is a separation between church and state. For example it is against, clearly absolutely clearly, the rules of Abraham and indeed of Christianity that you can divorce. It is forbidden but as citizens in a civil society you have a right to a civil divorce. This is a society based on a separation of church and state. You are absolutely, and I would defend your right to exclude h*mos**uals from marriage in your congregations or whenever you would see fit - although I would disagree with you. But as a matter of civil rights and of the state and of a secular society, apart from the church, you're wrong. It's a civil right and it needs to be defended. Caller #1: Well then let me defend my case then. Andrew Sullivan: Okay, you go ahead. Caller #1: Well, there really isn't a separation between the church and the state. There is technically, but not really. And I have another question for you: what if a man says that he was very attracted to a beast and he decided that he was born by nature to be with that beast? Be it a dog, or be it whatever... and he just decides he wants to marry it... I mean how far in society are we going to go? Andrew Sullivan: I'm sorry but I find the equation of a human being to a beast, of h*mos**uals to animals, to be something that I am actually beneath answering. Christopher Hitchens: It seemed to me that when you said that separation of church and state was technical only, rather than actual, that you had to be describing the constitution as a technicality in that instance which I hope would be for most listeners, well most viewers rather, a sufficient rebu*tal; the constitution states very explicitly that the government cannot concern itself with the business of religion. This doesn't mean that religious people can't concern themselves with the business of government, no one intends it to mean that. Andrew and I have probably our biggest disagreement on this very point - he regards himself as, in some way, created and supervised by a supreme being... I can't think how anyone peoples such a... they also think it's a very horrible idea, the idea of cradle to grave invigilation. Not only does it stop at the grave, according to people like Andrew. I think it's a really frightening and nauseating wish to be a slave. Fortunately, there's absolutely no reason to believe that there's any evidence for it at all. Brian Lamb: Tennessee, you're on. Go ahead. Caller #2: Oh, good morning, Brian, Christopher and Andrew. How are you today? Brian Lamb: Good. Caller #2: I was very taken aback by the rude statement from the previous caller who evidently thinks they're Christian because they can be rude but we Christians can't be rude and I was very taken aback because of what she was saying was actually stemming from what happened in the garden of Eden and Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden and that was after this fall of mankind, you know, sin entered the world and people forgot who God was and wanted to go the wrong way. From that, wanting to go the wrong way has stemmed a perversity of marriage that was ordained by God in the garden of Eden between man and one woman. One man, one woman. Everything has stemmed from that. Well, the previous caller, which is a far extreme into bestiality, that is so abhorrent to God. As is anything that is of his divine nature. Brian Lamb: Thanks, caller. Let's talk with Christopher Hitchens on this. What're you thinking? Christopher Hitchens: I was thinking about the talking snake and the garden of Eden and all these sinister fairy tales. I mean, the caller sounds so sweet I almost didn't want to say what I think about the horror of these beliefs. Brian Lamb: You do not believe any of this? Christopher Hitchens: I think it is a very nasty fairytale and I'm very relieved that it's not true. Brian Lamb: Are you an atheist? Christopher Hitchens: I'm an anti-theist. In other words, it's not that I don't believe that there is a God. I think that the discovery there isn't is a huge relief because it would be like living in a celestial North Korea, if there was one. You would never be able to escape this attention. It would be even worse if it was benign, as some people claim it to be. I think it's a horrible idea. I think it comes from the slave element within us: the wish to be looked after and protected and in some sense owned, which I repudiate with every fibre of myself. Andrew Sullivan: Well, Christopher... Christopher Hitchens: That's what I really believe, if you want I'll tell you what I really think about religion. That's the base of it. Andrew Sullivan: We can come together on the constitution... we can both exist in this republic as civil people but I must say that the notion that belief in God and love of Christ is some sort of permanent slavery that ones lives ones life controlled and unable to have freedom, to me at least as someone who is a believer, is a mis-description of the way it is. In fact, it is a form of liberation. Without it, I know I couldn't have gotten through whatever life has thrown my way and I also know in my heart of hearts that my being gay is something also that God loves and wants me to bring to its best fruition. But like straight people or gay people, we can all sin, we can all go away from god, but for me Christianity is not slavery it's liberation and the ability to have some perspective on the world, some place to go, where this worlds daily pressures does not get you and cannot get you is an incredibly liberating and important experience and so many people have it and I am very glad that God is an ear. Christopher Hitchens: See, all that's supposed to sound, and does in a way, modest and humble and so forth but think of all the incredibly solipsistic and arrogant claim it really is. You claim to know what God wants. Andrew Sullivan: No, I don't. Christopher Hitchens: You claim to think he has a plan for you. Andrew Sullivan: No, I do think that but I don't know what it is. Christopher Hitchens: Unbelievable conceit of the supposedly humble and meek... Here's why I think it's authoritarian... I'm told, there was a human sacrifice that took place 2000 years or so ago, in which I had no say which would not have taken place if I'd have had anything to do with it, but which has saved me whether I want to be saved or not. I don't like to be talked to in that tone of voice. Andrew Sullivan: Well, then you're talking about a certain kind of... Christopher Hitchens: I really don't. When it isn't sickly it's rather authoritarian that kind of talk, and you managed to do in your own question is a tiny element of ease. Brian Lamb: Tulsa, Oklahoma. The Democrat line. Caller #3: Hey, I may be... correct me if I'm not mistaken, you said that you're gay. Andrew Sullivan: That I am, yes. Caller #3: Okay, so that's h*mos**ual... Andrew Sullivan: Yes. Caller #3: Okay, and you said that you're a Christian also? Andrew Sullivan: I did. Caller #3: Okay, well there's a letter that was written to the Church that was in Rome a long time ago in the New Testament and it speaks of a, if you don't mind I'll just quote, it says "The wrath of god is being revealed from Heaven against all godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness since what may be known about God has plagued them, because God's made it plain to them.... and have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made." It says right here, that it says "Although they knew God they didn't glorify him as God or give him thanks but their thinking became pure and their foolish heart was darkened" and my point is coming up: "Although claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immoral God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles." Okay, it says "So therefore God gave them over the sinful desires of their hearts to s**ual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator" (Romans 1:18-32 NIV) Brian Lamb: Thanks, Caller. Christopher Hitchens: I was about to say, how much more of that were you going to take. Andrew Sullivan: He's citing, I think he's citing Romans, which and he's leading up to the condemnation of h*mos**uality or at least what St. Paul seemed to think was h*mos**uality. Let me say I will leave your conscience to you and your God and maybe you will leave me and my conscience to me and mine. More broadly speaking, there is enormous bunches of things in the Gospels and not in the Gospels but in the Bible and the Old Testament which are clearly forbidden. For example all sorts of kosher regulations, not many Christians contemporarily follow those kosher regulations. In fact, the Bible says that if you are gay you should be stoned to d**h. This is a practice that is upheld in many parts of the world. What I would ask of any Christian fundamentalist who believes in this... Christopher Hitchens: Do you believe that this book is the work of God? Andrew Sullivan: I believe that it's inspired by the word of God... Christopher Hitchens: Well, then I leave you with it. Andrew Sullivan: I've lived with it my entire life, Christopher. You're welcome. Christopher Hitchens: But you just said to this guy, you can have your God and I can have mine. Andrew Sullivan: No I did not. Christopher Hitchens: Why... Yes you did. Andrew Sullivan: No I did not, I said you can't... Christopher Hitchens: It's the word of God or it's not, surely. Andrew Sullivan: There are many many themes in Christian belief and one of them, only one of them, is a fundamentalist one in which every single word of the Bible is absolutely, literally, true. I don't happen to hold that particular view, I'm a Catholic I believe the Bible has to be interpreted through one's own experience, one's own faith experience, through tradition of the church and the scriptures. Christopher Hitchens: Tradition of the church is to say that something that's essential to your nature is a filthy sin. Andrew Sullivan: No it isn't, let me just correct you on that because it's very important. The teaching of the church to which on this matter is not a sin... Christopher Hitchens: The teaching of the non-paedophile wing of that Church... Andrew Sullivan: You can leave your anti-Catholic slurs elsewhere. Christopher Hitchens: It's not anti-Catholic.... Andrew Sullivan: The point... I'm not defending those people either. The church officially says that being gay is not a sin. Only acting upon it in a s**ual matter is regarded as sinful. This.... Christopher Hitchens: It's a way of saying hate the sin and love the sinner... they're talking about your nature. Andrew Sullivan: I think it is when you actually reflect upon it and read it and think about it in coherent. My book Virtually Normal has a whole chapter dealing on this issue. Brian Lamb: Let me share with you also an e-mail... Christopher Hitchens: Good book, by the way. Andrew Sullivan: Thank you, Christopher. Brian Lamb: ... from Joyce Boyes: "Congratulations you really have two of the lowest "journalist" to grace your stage today-seems easy for you to cater to that thinking so frequently any more. I just can't "gush" how wonderful C-Span is." J. Montgomery says: "I am deeply disappointed in you. Andrew Sullivan and Christopher Hitchens? They are like two peas on the same pod. There's not a dimes worth of difference between the two of them. They are both right wing extremists. Andrew Sullivan is the worst of the worst and Hitchens is not far behind. I stopped my subscription to the Nation magazine because of Hitchens." Christopher Hitchens: Right, we can take that as a comment... Brian Lamb: Swansea, South Carolina. You're next. Caller #4: Well, good morning, Complaint-Span. I'd like to say this to: Mr. Hitchens maybe he can if you want to know why the Left's receding faster than his hairline then all you have to do is listen to what he said about religion. He's unwilling for people to live under the tyrannies of their own conscience which is basically what religion is but he'd be perfectly happy for us to all live under the tyranny of a thousand or a million socialist bureaucrats. All you have to do is examine the intellectual dishonesty of that to see where he's coming from. Christopher Hitchens: I can listen to this guy all day. Andrew Sullivan: If receding hairline is a function, is a sign of one's intellectual decrepitude then I'm really in trouble. Christopher Hitchens: How do you know where my hairline was before, by the way? Brian Lamb: I don't know if you heard him but he slipped in an interesting... Christopher Hitchens: Interesting though, is how very often the loving Christian types begin with a nasty ad-hominem remark and they go on of course to get stupider and stupider. The idea of living under the tyranny of your own conscience is not what religion says at all. Religion says you have to live under a code transmitted through holy books and divine warrant and so on. Those of us who live with the tyranny only of our own conscience and belief that an ethical life can be lived without reference to the supernatural are called humanists - or atheists, or in my case anti-theists. You have it precisely wrong, sir, but then so you would. Brian Lamb: Did you hear him slip in Complaint-Span? Christopher Hitchens: I did, I thought that was sweet.